掲示板 Forums - Some questions about words for referring to people
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1. How do words like こいつ, あいつ etc. work? The idea of being both derogatory and familiar sounds strange to me- I thought they might be like an affectionate "idiot," but it seems more like one or the other, since once I saw it translated as an affectionate "little guy" and another time an aggressive "that thing." How are they both? Does it come down to tone? Context? Will it always sound rough, or is it extra kind in some contexts? How aggressive are they in a negative context?
2. I think I've heard that 母 is generally used when talking about your mom to somebody outside of your group and above you, while お母さん is for everything else? But what about just 母さん? I would have guessed it's a bit rude without the お, but a character who says 母さん both directly to his mom and when talking about her to others loves her a ton, he wouldn't be rude to her. So what does the lack of お actually convey?
3. How does おまえ work? I've heard it's rude unless it's a very close male\male relationship, but to me it seems like kind of the default "you"? Do the rules change completely in anime? It caught me really off guard to see a sweet character crying and apologizing to someone who hated him... seconds after calling them おまえ. I feel like... I'm definitely missing something with that 
1. "derogatory" is way too strong. They are appropriate for casual settings among close friends, but even then it depends on your relationship and the personal preferences of the speaker.
I often hear あいつ/こいつ simply used to address someone (a close friend, see Edit) with a bit of added "attitude". To me it's just casual, maybe a little "rough". Not inherently "affectionate"; not inherently "aggressive". For example, if a friend is being "annoying", you might say こいつ… ("this guy..."). I feel like it's more common between people who are very comfortable with each other and tend to banter a lot.
An annoyed/angry こいつ！, あいつ！ is probably where you've seen the more aggressive/negative translations. That's all down to context, tone, and delivery though. I don't feel anything from the words themselves.
Even in that context I wouldn't flag them as "aggressive". That's more so about context, tone, and delivery.
Edit: A really quick clarification in response to Shamugan:
Everything I said assumes a casual setting with close friends as a baseline (or anime logic 
). As well as people who are comfortable with the use of あいつ, こいつ, etc., which you would know if you're good friends with them. Again, "banter" is the word I'd like to really stress on. I do apologise if that wasn't clear enough.
To be clear, I DO NOT suggest you use them, just that you pay close attention to when and how natives use them :)
2. 母さん is just more casual. Maybe a bit more masculine compared to お母さん. Try not to overinterpret "rudeness" based on whether or not a word has 御 (お・ご). A lot of the time it's just a casual vs polite thing.
People also switch depending on context. A teenage boy who uses 母さん will (probably) switch to a less casual form of address when talking to a teacher or the school principle.
3. Anime can be very weird... おまえ is absolute not a default "you". You *can* hear it between close friends, usually when they're bantering (regardless of gender), but outside of that it's a big no no.
And yes, certain characters will just consistently use おまえ. It's just part of how they talk. It usually does fit their character, but you'd have to give me examples. I'd say it's usually used by more masculine characters, but they can lean either more aggressive or more stoic (cold). Idk, it's hard to explain without examples.
PS: Take everything I've said with a grain of salt. I'm no native and I didn't do any research
PPS: Keep in mind anime has a whole bunch of archetypes and settings (medieval, 戦国時代, fantasy, etc). Certain characters will use language that's way outside of what's considered normal in real life.
Thanks for the answers- yeah, a lot of the characters are the type that kind of makes the おまえ overuse make sense, it's mainly just one scene that made me completely question what I thought I knew about it. I just don't get why it would be used by someone feeling immensely guilty, who just got rescued by the person they're trying to treat way better, while trying to stammer out apologies and gratitude to them Although it's not an out of character term, that just seems like the LAST situation it should be used in... you did mention stoicism? Could it possibly be just part of trying to stay put together while getting emotional...? Idk, I just adore that scene, but the use of おまえ weirds me out so I'm trying to find some logic for it 
@おきび I think you might be putting too much weight on お前 itself. A character can feel deeply remorseful toward someone and still call them お前, that's simply how they address them. Whether it feels out of place depends on their usual speech and relationship, not just the emotional context.
※ お前 isn't inherently incompatible with respect or affection, and using it doesn't mean failing to treat someone well. In the case of an established close relationship anyway. Those rough around the edges characters who overuse お前 do tend to get on people's (characters they're not close to) nerves :D
A character can use お前 affectionately with someone close to them while coming across as abrasive or disrespectful to strangers.
I've heard plenty of characters use お前 affectionately (or neutrally). I've also seen characters who habitually use it as their casual default with someone suddenly switch to full 敬語 when their relationship changes. Though that's usually a conscious choice made afterwards, rather than something that happens in the heat of the moment. And these shifts towards 敬語 aren't always received positively either. You'd feel a bit weird if your friend started calling you Mr. [insert last name], right?
Again, it really depends on context, the character, and the kind of show you're watching. There isn't a set of simple rules that work in every situation.
PS: I'd need to watch the show to know for sure, but, based on what you've described, I don't think I'd have much of a reaction to the use of お前 in a scene like that. It sounds very normal to me. 
(in the context of anime that is)
Edit: To clarify something I said in my last post. You *can* hear it between close friends, often when they're bantering, regardless of gender. That said, not everyone likes being called お前, even in those situations.
Again, these are things you should probably be asking natives, so I do apologise if I get anything wrong
That character tried to reject them. You started with the wrong perspective, language doesn't explain that kind of things, psychology does and on top of that, you can add language. Because they feel guilty, they don't want help. But at the same time, they feel grateful. Confusing by that, they burst out words in every direction. おまえ because they feel guilty, don't want help, don't think they deserve help and want the other to give up on them. Here it was おまえ but it could have been anything, really. As long as it's harsh language (like "おまえ") or even more direct rejection ("Get out", "leave me alone", etc). It could have been softer too ("本当に、馬鹿なのか", for example). Language doesn't really matter in that kind of situation, people just burst out words (Fiction or not).
A few points on your original questions:
1. I'm gonna disagree a bit with ギョルギ九十三 here =p. We're both more influenced by casual Japanese because of our exposure with things like Youtube. And yeah, it's like that in casual situation with close friends. But otherwise, あいつ/こいつ are strong words. And quite more "violent" than おまえ in my opinion. おまえ "merely" violate politeness/distance conventions but it's still a you. こいつ/あいつ, you're devaluating other, looking at them with contempt. I've seen quite a lot of people not reacting at all to おまえ and seen the same people react to こいつ/あいつ. Because you're crossing another kind of line which not only the politeness line. Hence why it's translated to "That thing". It's doesn't mean "thing" btw but in terms of feeling and equivalence to english, it's kinda close to that. As for why it can sound affectionate and kinda rough/rude, it's because affection and roughness/rudeness are not opposed. If anything, two people using rough language is often a sign of closeness. Because it means they have lowered all of their walls, give up any pretenses and are just treating each other roughly because they both know it won't affect their relation. It can even be a way to get closer to other people. But, mark my word here, if you don't know what you're doing, I can guarantee you that it won't go well quickly. Most likely scenario, they won't tell you anything during the conversation but behind they will think about a lot of things. And after that, especially with online relationship, without any words, they will block you on any social media or game you're using and you will wake up the next day, noticing they're not in your friends list anymore without any ways to contact them :D. I'd had a few discussions about that with Japaneses. A lot of them were about foreigners. So yeah, feel free to try but don't be surprised by the result. Honnestly, there's only one general safe rule you should remember imo. マイコー's rule: About Politeness, don't use anything until you've seen enough Japanese do it. And even with, just ask instead of randomely trying. Some people may even let you use those word with them. And even if you've spend 5 years studying Japanese, don't believe you were able to understand anything until you actually talked with Japanese for at least for a year (lots of craps on the internet too). Except if they gave you an explicit permission to do that.
2. I never know how to answer that kind of questions so I made a quick table based on a few statistical studies with ChatGPT's help. That table is NOT WORTH REMEMBERING. Because it's based only on a few statistical studies, which often target sub-population/are limited in term of size, and it's also a synthesis, so it get rid of the details/hide contradictions. If I do the same table but only for people born during the Showa Era, you would get opposite tendencies :D. So useful to get some basic intuition which you should never confused for the truth or a general truth because "general truth" contradict "local truth" (By that I mean, in a subpopulation or a certain social group/etc).
| Form | Address your own mother | Refer to your own mother casually | Refer to your own mother formally / to outsiders | Refer to someone else's mother | Main feel |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| お母さん | ★★★★★ | ★★★★★ | △ / possible but often avoided in formal etiquette | ★★★★★ | General, familiar, socially neutral |
| 母さん | ★★–★★★ | ★★–★★★ | ✗ usually | ✗ usually | Familiar, plain, somewhat rougher / often masculine-coded |
| 母（はは） | ✗ | △ | ★★★★★ | ✗ | Neutral/formal reference to one's own mother |
| ママ | ★★★★★ especially children | ★★★★ within family/intimate contexts | ✗ | △ in child/parent-community contexts | Intimate, familial, strongly associated with childhood |
| お母ちゃん | ★★ | ★★ | ✗ | rare | Very familiar, warm, colloquial |
| 母ちゃん | ★★ | ★★ | ✗ | rare | Familiar, plainer/rougher than お母ちゃん |
| おかん | ★–★★ | ★–★★ | ✗ | rare | Very casual; strongly Kansai-associated |
| おふくろ | unusual as direct address | ★–★★, especially adult men | △ casual reference to others | ✗ | Masculine, familiar, sometimes nostalgic |
| お母様 | possible but uncommon | uncommon | uncommon for own mother | ★★★★ | Respectful/elevated |
| 母上 | essentially marked/archaic | marked | marked | marked | Historical, literary, joking/character speech |
| 母親 | ✗ | descriptive only | descriptive only | descriptive only | Objective category: “mother/parent,” not a normal address term |
And now, I'm not sure what to say. And I don't want to spend the whole afternoon trying to explain the table
(Why am I doing that when I always lack time seriously x) ). So take a look and if you have some specific questions, ask and I will try to answer them. (but keep in mind, that for sub-population or social group, it won't be always be true).
As for "But what about just 母さん? I would have guessed it's a bit rude without the お, but a character who says 母さん both directly to his mom and when talking about her to others loves her a ton, he wouldn't be rude to her. So what does the lack of お actually convey?"
First, お母さん or 母さん are mostly conventionalized. Translation: they have nothing to do with politeness nowadays. Like お, さん have lost their meaning in most situations. It's more like a standard expression that kinda contradict some general rule. Like parents often adress themselves with お母さん or お父さん. But you don't use honorific to talk about yourself, it doesn't any sense (except in those kind of exception).
Second, in the rare case where it matter, it's not the absent of お which surprising. It's the presense of お or さん which is surprising. General rule of japanese (which break from time to time), your elevate others or people outside of your group with honorifics (and lots of others things). Here, it's the opposite :D
And there are a few case where it's remarkable. For example, teenagers reaching adulthood switching back to お母さん (from ママ for example). One of the reason why that happen is because they want be more respectful to their parents (because they are past the adolescent stage and start to feel more grateful towards their parents). So, for that specific case, it's more respect (even if お母さん is kinda "bleached" in modern Japanese).
As for 母さん, first, child usually start with お母さん (because parents use お母さん/お父さん to adress themselves). But that specific お母さん just doesn't means anything except "Mom". They don't have a high awareness of the language works, how politeness works, so it doesn't that much for them. When they reach adolescence tho, they switch to other way to adress their own mothers (or even way before adolescence). One of them is ママ, which is quite an affectionate way to call your mother. But some other teenager don't always have that kind of relationship and don't to have a childish way to adress their mothers. Which doesn't mean they don't have any affection or respect for their parents. But because of that, they don't choose to use ママ and switch to 母さん to still be respectful to them without sounding too childish. And some preserve that until adulhood and even continue to use like that (And it happen more often with rough teenager boy, hence the "masculine" which is, well, simplified). Well, that's one progression/evolution? Among mutiple others with multiple others reason that could be explain in a lot of different ways, so... don't generalize anything. Like, you could have:
1) お母さん -> ママ -> ママ -> お母さん
2) お母さん -> ママ -> 母さん -> お母さん
3) ママ -> ママ -> ママ -> ママ
4) ママ -> ママ -> 母さん -> お母さん
5) お母さん -> ママ -> 母さん -> 母さん
6) Not listing all of them and not explaining all of them because I will the entire week doing that otherwise. And if I want to back it up rigourously while explaining every aspect, the entire next year. Well, no, that's a lie. Probably a few dozens thesis or more.
TLDR: Don't overinterpret that kind of expression because it's highly conventionalized in modern japanese and if you want to understand the non-conventionalized part, be prepared to spend a lot of time not even studying Japanese but studying linguistic, sociology, psychology, etc. If you want don't that, just get used to Japanese and talk to native directly, you will learn all of those stuff intuitively anyway :D (which I honnestly recommend because 1) it's safer and 2) it's faster... except if you're like me and like to waste time not studying Japanese... it's fun tho, i guess )
3. Basically, my first answer + similar to 1
Ok, I'm done
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