掲示板 Forums - How long does it take to master native Japanese?@(・●・)@

Hi and welcome to Renshuu! This question gets asked, on average, once every two months. (Try looking up "how long" or "how many" in the forum (making sure you have "Title" ticked) and most of the results will be questions exactly like yours.

There are some replies and even some official estimations, BUT. The reason answers will vary is: what do you consider "mastering"? To some, it's being able to read a book in Japanese. To some, it's being able to watch anime without subs. To some, it's being able to voice-chat with Japanese people just like they do with their friends now. To some, it'd all of the above. They are not the same thing and require different skills.

Then there's the matter of how each of us studies. Will you have, for example, one hour each day to dedicate to studying Japanese? Will it be something you do on the weekends, or for 20 minutes on the commute? Will it be something you can put all your time and effort into, or just a side hobby? All those influence the answer immensely. It's like asking "how long is a piece of string?" without knowing which particular piece of string it is, if it's elastic or not etc. etc. Just a "piece of string" in general.

Last but not least, unless you have a specific goal (such as "my family is moving to Japan next year for work"), maybe it's not something you should think about now. What use would the answer be, even if someone was able to magically give you an exact one (which, as I said, is impossible)? Will you love Japanese more, or less, or will you be motivated more, or less, if you hear it will take three years than if you hear it will take six years? It can give you false expectations and then you'll think "my progress is too slow, I'm demotivated" or "my progress is so fast, I don't have to work that hard".

Sorry for the long answer, it just takes a lot of explaining at first. For now, please be sure Japanese can be fun and rewarding, and the Renshuu community is here for any questions you might have about it!

むじな (08月13日, 19:15)

Hi and welcome to Renshuu! This question gets asked, on average, once every two months. (Try looking up "how long" or "how many" in the forum (making sure you have "Title" ticked) and most of the results will be questions exactly like yours.

There are some replies and even some official estimations, BUT. The reason answers will vary is: what do you consider "mastering"? To some, it's being able to read a book in Japanese. To some, it's being able to watch anime without subs. To some, it's being able to voice-chat with Japanese people just like they do with their friends now. To some, it'd all of the above. They are not the same thing and require different skills.

Then there's the matter of how each of us studies. Will you have, for example, one hour each day to dedicate to studying Japanese? Will it be something you do on the weekends, or for 20 minutes on the commute? Will it be something you can put all your time and effort into, or just a side hobby? All those influence the answer immensely. It's like asking "how long is a piece of string?" without knowing which particular piece of string it is, if it's elastic or not etc. etc. Just a "piece of string" in general.

Last but not least, unless you have a specific goal (such as "my family is moving to Japan next year for work"), maybe it's not something you should think about now. What use would the answer be, even if someone was able to magically give you an exact one (which, as I said, is impossible)? Will you love Japanese more, or less, or will you be motivated more, or less, if you hear it will take three years than if you hear it will take six years? It can give you false expectations and then you'll think "my progress is too slow, I'm demotivated" or "my progress is so fast, I don't have to work that hard".

Sorry for the long answer, it just takes a lot of explaining at first. For now, please be sure Japanese can be fun and rewarding, and the Renshuu community is here for any questions you might have about it!

Thank you very much. I will try my best and I heard Renshuu’s Japanese classes will take you to N2 or N1 level. And I have a goal ahead so it might be possible for me to keep learning.​

It took me 6 months to have my first conversation with a native. I end up saying only "こんばんは！", "Shamuです!", "よろしくお願いします!" ("Good evening!", "I'm Shamu", "Nice to meet you") and then I got "nihongo jouzued" (Basically, I got told that I'm good at Japanese, it's from 日本語 and 上手).
If you don't know what that means, it's famous meme in Japanese learning communities :D
Japanese often tend to give compliment easily... and a bit lightly, even to beginners that know nothing.
Still, that was my first conversation. And I've seen people do that even sooner (and even day 1 for some people).

So, in term of first interaction with Japanese or Japanese content, not necessary that long :D
And I'm still the same and doing the same thing. I just know more than before. More words, more kanji, more grammar, more cultural reference, etc. I know even more than native sometimes.

Spend one hour researching and trying to understand one kanji down to its etymology and done! You know more than a native :D
I hate that when it happens
It gives me the feeling that I wasted my time and should have focused on more "normal" knowledge. Because I kinda get get "nihongo jouzed" with natives again, just a different version (Well, at least, it's more sincere this time).

That will probably happen to you too at some point. Just because you will become another language learner that focus too much on the language compared to a native.
Among advanced learners — and when I say advanced learners, it mean people that are not here anymore, on renshuu or other language communites — that often happens :D
That doesn't mean they know everything btw. It just means that they're often better than natives when it come to the language (knowing random fact about the language, grammar, kanji, rare words, etc).
And btw, it doesn't stop at just knowing. They can talk about it, give abstract explanations, etc.

Everytime I think about that, it makes me laught. Because they still lacking on some basic things sometimes compared to natives. Things that are maybe not that basics but still quite common for natives. But at the same they can easily live in Japan (and enjoy their lifes there). By being both better and worse than natives. Which is laughable. But also fine as the same time. They're just language otaku. Often because they ask themselves what they should do to reach "natives level" and end up overdoing it instead of interacting more with natives or native contents :D

Knowing that, would you say that they are at a "native level"? When they're both better and worse than natives? And at the same time, do you want to become like them? Is it a "bad" result in your opinion? For me, it's good enough :3

Also, I just talked about the language so far but it will be also true for anything you like or often do. Like talking about your study or your job. Or any hobbies. Simply, because you will talk or read about that and you just become good at what do. Even with your own mothertongue. Did you never used a word that other natives in your language didn't knew? Or give an explanation that they struggled with but other natives didn't? And did that never to you too?

English is also not my native language but I know a lot of words that on average native english speakers don't know. I learn "deixis" the other day. And "construal" before that (and no, it's not about what you think, check wikipedia). And I pretty much doubt that most natives can give me a definition of those two words on the spot.
But I know them because I'm a language otaku :D
At the same time, I realized that I forgot the word "curtain" a few years ago. And only "relearned" it because I was studying some JLPT schedule at that time

So, honnestly, just don't bother with "native level". The ones that think the least about that kind of things are the ones that progress the fastest in general.

And if you want an answer to your real question which is probably something like "When will I be able to have a conversation with native?" or "When will I be able to read?", then the answer is simple: day 1.
For conversation, it will be the same as me. You will just say a few words or sentences, end up getting "nihongo jouzued", get flustered because you still can't handle a conversation and after the conversation, you feel half-happy and half-frustrated. And after, probably repeat that for a few years and become better and better. But it won't be that different. You will still lacking words, expressions, kanji, cultural references, etc. But you will probably be "good enough" by that point. The same way, you're "good enough" in your own mothertongue and still need to ask "what does that mean?" from time to time.

Another answer is 5 years. That's not the time you need to feel perfectly comfortable with the language. That's the time you need to give up on the concept of "native level" and learn to be satisfied with your abilities. And also start to repeat to beginners that they shouldn't worry about that kind of things
Since Japanese is your third language, that's probably the answer you want to hear. Though, if you focus only on reading or speaking/listening, you will be mainly "good enough" at that. With the same "good enough", I was talking about before :3.

Anyway, probably not the most satisfying answer but hope it will help a bit =p
頑張ってね～

That 2200+ is not the number of hours to reach native fluency.

It's the benchmark of the FSI to bring their students under their program to IRL 3, defined as "General Professional Profiency", which is absolutely not "native fluency", and it's mainly useful for the FSI. And about the FSI,

"The following language learning timelines reflect 70 years of experience in teaching languages to U.S. diplomats"
I found that while searching a bit more about the FSI.
"Diplomats"? And you want to use that as a reference for most people here? Being able to talk skillfully about economics in a diplomatic context?
I'm not sure most people are interested in that kind of proficiency. And it's not "native fluency". It's both more and less than "native fluency". More because it's specialized (like the JLPT), less because it's still not "native fluency". There are like 4 level beyond IRL 3 for reading for example.

Depending on your goals, your training methods, how intensive your studies are, how much immersion you're doing (spoiler, the FSI doesn't necessarily include immersion), whether you're living in Japan or not and tons of other factors, that could vary a lot.

So, no, it's not an official answer. It's an extremely specific training-program metrics for their students, their methods and their goals. There is no official answer to that and even if there was an answer, you would have to define what is "native fluency". I'm pretty much doubt that anyone here have the same definition as the FSI (Even while using an official measurement of profiency like the IRL and even with that, profiency is not equivalent to fluency btw).

I know you wanted to give an official number with no bad intention and wanted to help but unfortunately, no, there is none. Learning Japanese can take both less time and more time just depending on your objectives.

The main thing you can remember from that number is just that it takes longer for English-speaker to reach high general/professional proficiency in Japanese than in most European Language. That is pretty solid. Anything beyond that can be questioned and is currently questioned from a lot of different angles.

That's also why you should not think about number of hours. At worst, it will give you false hope that will make you incredibly frustrated later and at best, it will just mislead on the amount of effort and time you have to spend in order to learn Japanese. Both in a positive and negative sense (You could learn faster or slower). Might as well not bother about it.