掲示板 Forums - When to lean more heavily into immersion?

Morning all,

Steadily working my way through renshuu preN5 and N5 material and wondering at what point should I try listening and reading things, trying to watch TV. I already watch some anime but I usually only am able to pick out a few words here and there.

Right now those things seem pretty impossible, but I imagine that at a certain point things will start to click and I can begin to accelerate my learning with Japenese media.

When was that point for you?

よろしくお願いします、

マット

For me it wasn't until about N4 or N3 that I would say immersion really felt very easy at all. However starting at N5 isn't wrong by any means, a few months after I started learning Japanese I played a 50 hour RPG fully in Japanese and understood enough to complete the game and get enough of the story, but I looked up words a lot as I was doing it, which is very necessary at a level like N5. By the time you get to N3 or N2 (what I'm at currently) while there are still a lot of words I don't know I can usually figure stuff out through context and end up not needing to look up words very often.

I don't know if this helps really, so I guess I'll end with some encouragement: 頑張れ！

When you're lucky enough to find some content that are easy enough compared to your level and your vocabulary. It can happen day 1 or 5 years later. Unless you're searched for it and maybe make some extra effort at the beginning.

For example, let's say you like insect. A lot of japanese like insect (because of beetles). So there is a bunch of channel about that which are more or less advanced. Like some are at university level with hour long video while other just showcase a few interesting insects in shorts. Give up on the hour long video for now. On the other hand, you can easily start to watch the short right now. Especially if you like insect and you studied biology for example.

The reason why it works is because most of the time, the content is the same and the main part is just これは「unknown word」です. And if at that moment, that youtuber have an insect in their hand and they say that sentence, you don't need to be a genius to guess that they were talking about the insect's name. And you won't need to open a dictionary at that time. After they may briefly describe the insect, they appearance, what they eat, their life cycle, etc. And it will never really complicated. Maybe a few technical terms here and there but same as for the insect's names, you can guess the words if the content is simple enough. And in those of short, it will happen more often since people try to make shorts as.. short as possible and straight up to the up to grab your attention. Oh and it works for grammar too. Even if you don't know a certain grammar pattern, you can easily guess the meaning and learn it intuitively through immersion. For example, I remember watching a video showcasing some beetles. And at some point, one of them were really angry, in a defensive stance. So the youtuber said "おぉ、怒ってる". Even if you still don't completely understand the ている pattern or don't know that てる is a spoken abbreviation of ている, you also don't need to be a genius here to understand that the whole sentence means "It's angry". If you know the verb 怒る, it will be even easier to guess. But even if you don't know 怒る, if you know how insect's defensive stances, it will not be that difficult to guess.

All of that is what linguists call "comprehensible input". Basically, you watch what you are able to understand even without knowing everything (words wise, kanji wise, grammar wise, etc). By guessing, deducing the meaning from the context. And the easiest way to do that is to watch something you're familiar. "let's say you like insect", that part was important. Because not knowing random fact like what a insect's defensive stance is will make your immersion more complicated for that specific topic. There are other things that help like often have speech habits or script that they use in each video. So after a while, you will be easily able to understand 70, 80 or 90% of the video. And once you reach that threshold, well, just continue to enjoy those video passively and you're will progress slowly just by watching. You may need some extra effort at the beginning but not as much as you think. Like for those kinda of short, you may need I don't know, 2-3 month of extra effort? Like adding a few technical and common words then studying them for a while. And you don't neither N5, N4 or even N1. Even after N1, you may still not be able to enjoy to video easily. Why? First, because you don't need that much common words and second, you need technical/specialized words that you will never learn with the JLPT. But by starting with some simple contents, you may reach that level far sooner. Even before N5, if you're diligent. Just, you need to find adequate content and making some extra effort at the beginning. And nobody can do that for you. If, by chance, you like insect, I have a channel like that but otherwise, you may have to find that channel yourself (I don't know what you like too, what you're knowledgeable about too, so, I can't really help).

Anyway, that kind of immersion is more like "targeted" immersion as opposed to "random" immersion. "Random" immersion, for me, is only for intermediate or advanced learners. Because it's random and you never properly master/focus on anything. It's also frustrating for most people except for stubborn people that are not bothered by unknown words, grammar, etc. If you focus on just one thing, on the other hand, it's a lot more easier. And you don't need to reach any JLPT level for that at the beginning. Just some targeted study until you reach a certain threshold. That's why I'm curently able to watch some video about linguistic in japanese. And at the same time, I still struggle with basic conversation. Often people think the first level of fluently they will reach is basic conversation but... nah. Basic conversation are the worst. Because they can go in any direction and natives will often hit you randomly with a stupidly uncommon word that you can't even find in most dictionary. And that one word will prevent you to understand the whole conversation. It still often happen to me. On some specific topics, on the other hand, I can talk for hours. Because I studied those for years by watching and adding a few words every now and then.

Basically, if I sum up, become good at least one topic. Then immerse yourself in that topic everday by watching a few shorts first. Once you reach a threshold, you'll be able to understand and learn the grammatical or word nuances, tone of voice, emotion, etc. And everything you learned there will reusable for other immersions later. And the more you grind that specific topic, the more you will be able to understand those things that are not really taugh in textbook or others formal ressources. And you need those to reach that "comprehensible input" level that linguists talk about. And move from short to 5-10 mn video and then 20mn or hour long video. It may takes some time and it will hard at the beginning, especially if you can't easy enough content that you like, but it will worth it in the long term.

頑張ってね～

PS: Just a small note but anime/manga or game like RPG can be extremely hard. A lot of people want to immerse themselves with that kind of content first. But even for native, those kind of content can be difficult. For example, in a fantasy setting, you may encounter a lot of "old" japanese. With words, kanji or grammar that are not even used anymore. It may better to choose easier target first. Because even natives struggle with that. It's that you can't focus on that and if you like, it may be a good idea to start now. But don't expect to be immersion-ready soon. But again, some specific ones may be easier than other. Up to you to find them =p

That's because you're thinking of your current level of knowledge in English as a profesionnal. And yeah, it will be impossible right now.
But you could try, I don't know, biology for middle schooler for now. That's what I did for grammar for example, before trying to watch some video about linguistics.
You could also try to find some video that give health tips. Maybe more on focus the food at first. How to have a balance diet or something like that.

Basically, either lower level or very, very specific topic. The more, the easier. Because it will reuse the same vocabulary, the same expression, kanji, etc. The same way you probably give the same pieces of advise to your patient. And as a professional, you will probably those kind of advise even with partial information. That what you should count on. If you have patient because you could work in a laboratory now and then my example wouldn't work. On that part I can't really help because 1) I don't your profession and 2) I don't if there is a suitable channel for beginners. And even, with that, I'm not sure if I could find a suitable channel just... well, because I don't even which keyword would be appropriate.

You could also aim for more generic science related channel first maybe. It may help you to build to some vocabulary for more specialized video. Because for specialized things like medicine, you may to need to build some vocabulary first in order to close the gap.

Honnestly, on that part, I don't what I should advise because depending on your personality, your interest, etc, I could give opposite pieces of advice. Like to someone who is very organized and doesn't mind not having fun for while, I would maybe recommend to start with biology for middle schooler. Or even advanced channel for professionals. Because they would just do it the right way aka, without worrying about being not good enough. If you're the type to feel burden by that kind of things then don't do that. I know that both type of learners exist and with appropriate pieces of advices, they can found their ways. And with the wrong advice they may become frustrated too... So I'm always worried about what I said when giving advice =x

But, basically, you just need an entry point. Which may not be medicine btw. If you can't find an easy enough channel, which may or may not exist for that specific, you may have to give up for now and aim for something else (another topic you like for example). As long as you can find just one channel that work for you, it will help a lot. But that the difficult part.

Also, in the mean time, you could watch a channel with EN subtitles. You will learn others things that may not be able to study on renshuu but will necessary in the long term. And could make you study easier too. Like knowning more about japan, culturaly, historicaly, etc. And in your case, how professionals explain things to non-professionals. Now that I think about it, japanese medical professionals use a lot onomatopeia to describe pain... and for foreigner, it's a nightmare... so yeah, if you interested with medical stuff, be prepared to study a lot of them. There are a lot of that kind of things that you can notice even by watching a channel with EN subtitles. And it's an easy way to grab a few words to slowly build your vocabulary. Because dictionary are not helpful at all for that part.

....

Okay, I give up... x)
I tried to search for a suitable channel but most of them are not for complete beginners. They could useful material for a weekly routine tho. Like watch one short per week, add every word in a word schedule and every sentences in sentence schedule. Don't think immersion but just study material that will prepare you for immersion later.
And who know? With luck, youtube will recommend an easier channel at some point. That why I said it's up to luck sometimes. Especially for technical subject like that. You may try your luck by asking other people too. Maybe there is another medical professional on renshuu or some other communities that may aware of some good channel for that.

On the other hand, for that specific subject, if you can't find a good channel, just build your vocabulary for now with a custom schedule. That's the biggest strengh of renshuu. If you want, you can study any things you like easily like that for later. And also you can try with other topic that you like. It may not help directly for medical stuff but it will raise your overall japanese, lowering the barrier for more technical topic in the long term. But you need a bit of luck and some extra effort at the beginning.
I found a few channel like that in the past but problem is that I didn't anyone who may enjoy those kind of specific content at that time. Like the insect one. And right now, I even forgot the name of the channel (probably still subscribed but not sure I can find it amongst). It's fustrating but yeah, it's a bit up to luck...

Anyway, hope you can find one! And it's worth to try find at least one related to any of your interest. Because just one can change everything.

PS: There's a study group called "Native listening" with thread for sharing youtube channel if you want to check. The group is a bit inactive right now unfortunatly but if more people were to share a few channels, it may become a good place to find good channel by level or topic in the long term (just need to make the study group active x) ). Anyway, there are two channel that I recommend to beginners there:

• Taka Nihongo Dojo
• Yuu-chan Japanese

The main content are shorts and they count as immersion even with the EN subtitles. They are not about advance or technical topic but there are a good start if you're not already past that level (at the very least to work on your basic listening skill). Just need to subscribe and watch them from time to time whenever you spot them (or with a coffe in your bed, up to you ).

Edit: well never mind, you're probably already past that level. Small note but podcast are hard. Because you can't rely on visual information. Video are the best for immersion, especially with JP subtitles. You can rely on the context, visual information or the subtitles to understand the video. It's doesn't mean that you shouldn't study with podcast at your level but don't expect it to be easy. It's just harder and takes more effort.