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Forums - My frustrations about practicing writing kanji in Renshuu

Top > renshuu.org > Questions about renshuu



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amethhh
Level: 235

I feel like in the long run, as a pro user using kanji writing practice, adjusting my handwriting to the strokes of the usual kanji font makes me unaware of my own quirks in writing kanji. There's a lot of frustrations welling up inside me because this feature in renshuu is a little way too uncostumizable.

There's this system which judges how close your stroke is to the real stroke, but when you use it in conjunction with the "don't show kanji" whether to make it appear for some time or not show it at all, it's almost impossible to write just because you went way off for 5 pixels whether relative to the radical or the stroke itself. I don't think it's remotely useful feature, except if you wanted to play osu! with FLHD mod on (iykyk) which I'm not interested in being sweaty at. So I'm forced with the only option, that is show kanji and don't show stroke guide, which I'm less happy about.

It would be nice, instead, to have the user a blank canvas, and write the kanji given the clue, and press a button to show the true kanji. Whether you feel you pass or not, you should be able to judge how close your strokes are to the kanji shown.

I'm happy to have renshuu as a main Japanese language learning app, alongside Anki. However my experience with writing kanji has been unproductive so far, which what I wanted to address here. I hope the team in renshuu creates some kind of solution here, I would be delighted if so.

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1 day ago
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Are you sure you’ve tried all the customization options available? I am not presently practicing writing on renshuu, so I have forgotten the details, but I thought there was a setting that controls how strict the grading is.

It sounds like you have it cranked all the way up, a setting that closely approximates the scrutiny elementary school children receive from their teachers, but is likely to be more frustrating than useful to most renshuu users.

3
1 day ago
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amethhh
Level: 235

Are you sure you’ve tried all the customization options available? I am not presently practicing writing on renshuu, so I have forgotten the details, but I thought there was a setting that controls how strict the grading is.

It sounds like you have it cranked all the way up, a setting that closely approximates the scrutiny elementary school children receive from their teachers, but is likely to be more frustrating than useful to most renshuu users.


No, that's not the point at all and I am fully aware of that feature. Renshuu does not have relative adjustment to where your first stroke should start and does not automatically scale your drawn kanji to the true kanji, and people with perfectionism (which you describe as the other way around) rather perfect their whole kanji form rather than worrying where to start to pin your strokes. The problem with setting grading scheme low is that it's a bit too low that your kanji probably would end up looking like whole lot of nothing; if you messed around it a lot you notice how forgiving the grading system is that even just filling half the stroke would complete the stroke. And then renshuu proceeds to show the full stroke as if that's what the user had drawn (even though yes Renshuu indeed shows the red outline but it's outrageously dark red). Especially if you just went with your own drawn kanji that the overlapped true kanji just takes over the entire screen with bright green even if it's low grading scheme. So I set the grading scheme just below the max. One other thing that the overlapping true stroke after you've correctly drawn the stroke is also one of the reasons why I'm creating this criticism; I can't toggle to see which is mine and which is the font. But still my issue lies within how unproductive the grading scheme as a whole even if it's low, medium or high.

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1 day ago
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マイコー
Level: 301

renshuu does adjust based on the first stroke, actually. So if you make a good stroke but it's a little too far to the left, renshuu does account for that.

There is not really a solution to what you're describing without throwing out the entire system, or building a new system alongside it, which I do not plan on doing. Some of the visual changes (such as toggling the colors on or off after drawing) might be possible, but the system is well received by most such that this is not a high priority (given that I am the only developer, and I have a huge number of things to do)

While this doesn't solve anything, this information may help you better understand how things are set up.

The writing system is layered on top of those svgs - those are the visual images of the kanji strokes for the thousands of kanji that have them. They come from the https://kanjivg.tagaini.net/ project (which is awesome).

So when you look at a single stroke, it is not described in the sense of "ok, draw this kind of shape, curve here, hook here, etc.", but rather it's ultimately a collection of pixels that make up the stroke.

So, when the user draws a stroke, in overly-simplistic terms, it's going to say "how close is their stroke to the expected stroke". However, a computer program (without getting 10x more complex than what I have) cannot do what humans do when we look at the stroke, so it is ultimately looking at a percent overlap between the two strokes. In addition to a percent of overlap, it also has numbers representing how much of the stroke was covered (for example, did you leave off the bottom half), and how much of your stroke went outside of the expected area.

So it takes these three numbers, and tries to bracket the stroke into a grade (the low/medium/high). There are absolutely edge cases that one can create that will make it look like "what is the system even doing", but I believe it works well enough most of the time that trying to address those edge cases would make 1% of it better, but cause issues for the other 99%.

There are many things that renshuu cannot do (without *significant* changes - and much slower processing - if it takes half a second for it to grade each stroke, then users are not going to be too happy).

- Adjust the size of the user strokes. It might seem "obvious" to you (a user) to see a small ム (let's pretend that was one stroke) and say "obviously that is the right shape, but it's 25% too small". From renshuu's perspective, there is no "shape" data that can be used to compare to the expected stroke. So, the only solution that I can think of would be this: "after user takes a stroke, stretch out the height and width of the stroke to match the height and width of the expected stroke". This would cause...a lot of problems, much more than the issue it is trying to fix.

From a teacher's perspective, I would argue that this should not be implemented, even if it is possible. Getting used to keeping all of your characters the same size in relation to the box is essential for legible writing (if you plan on using it in the real world). Legibility and "regularity" in writing style is important both in allowing the reader to quickly and accurately read your text, as well as the handling the reality in judgement that all people make when seeing things in the world. It might be external, or it might not even be something they realize they are thinking, but I would expect that people will treat writing that is clean and legible better than something that is skewed in shape/size, perhaps looks like a young learner wrote it, etc. I'd like to think that doesn't matter, but humans are humans.

- Adjust the angle of the stroke (or part of the stroke). There it is a single stroke () or something more complex (like the bottom of ), trying to take that shape and rotate it along the center point (if a center stroke can be determined for some of these) a few degrees in each direction, then doing another overlap scan would be computationally expensive, and would not even solve a number of the issues (such as one piece of the stroke being correct, but the 2nd part being just a bit off in one direction or another).


I do hope I can add additional customization in the future, but both due to time constraints and the growing user base of renshuu, I try to strike a balance between customization and visual complexity. renshuu is already considered by many to be extremely hard to use, the interface is too packed, etc. A lot of this comes from the level of customization available, so each request has to be considered given the needs and expectations of both "normal" as well as "power" users.

6
18 hours ago
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amethhh
Level: 235

Thanks for the response. I entirely understand about your suggestions on the information and how to do the kanji writing. I absolutely agree about what you said on legible writing; it's just that I am sure that would improve into my years of learning Japanese. I just want you to know that that does not diminish my worries and my feelings towards it as a user who's been in it for four months into Renshuu and became a pro just because of this feature (and the sentence for vocab feature). Definitely majority of people have no problems (what I've seen here) but I just wished we have something like Manual Self-Check feature just like Kanji Study app in play store; or enable people to have instead "No Grading" scheme under the Grading Scheme drop down as an option which I don't think counts as throwing out the system entirely. I'm sure マイコー have a lot of things to prioritize over, take your time as well.

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5 hours ago
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