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Forums - Verb stem ("formal te form") question

Top > 日本語を勉強しましょう / Let's study Japanese! > Anything About Japanese



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Slipperybeluga
Level: 588

I am working through Quartet and one of the grammar points seemed pretty simple: it's "formal" te form where the verb stem is used instead of te. I don't understand the example sentences that are given that seem to mix formal and casual, though. Why in god's name would you use a formal "te" (verb stem) but then end the sentence in casual form? Does the "formal te" mean that formal "desu", "~masu", etc are not used? Is it therefore wrong to use desu? Can someone explain these? kao_heart.pngthanks.png

き、ける <-- why not "です"?

り、かった。<-- why mixing verb stem 'te' and adjective 'te'? why not くand why not かったです kao_shiawase.png

があり、んでいた

このく、やすい


1
8 days ago
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I don't think those are "formal" te forms, but rather 連用形

Edit:

(verb stem) for connecting verbs.
て-form for connecting adjectives or clauses.

I don't think either carries an inherent level of politeness.

I could be wrong of course.


くて is just the て-form of the adjective い, I don't get what you mean by "mixing verb stem 'te' and adjective 'te'"


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8 days ago
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I’m not familiar with the material, but I expect some of the confusion here comes from conflating formal writing with polite conversation (respectful language). It’s common to use plain verbs in things like scientific papers and other serious or “formal” writing. I think it’s also true that this type of writing tends to avoid the て-form. Why? It’s probably one of those arbitrary things, like avoiding the first-person when writing in English, that signals to the reader that you are a serious person making a serious argument.

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8 days ago
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Yeah, it's a confusing topic in general. I'll try to give a better explanation.


If we look at the first sentence, it's fairly neutral. To change it to "formal", you'd just change the ending.

Casual: き、ける

Polite: き、けるです


I see being referred to as the "Formal Conjunctive", but that's only under certain circumstance - usually no て-form, a comma (because no て-form), more formal vocabulary and polite endings. On its own, the verb stem isn't formal, it's just a connector.

I found this example ちょうしょくをたべ、でかけるじゅんびをしてください。<- this uses the whole + comma thing to avoid the て-form and ends in ください.


I don't think any of the sentences provide by OP really mix registers, unless they are explicitly written to be used in "formal" writing (whatever that means to you). If the lesson is trying to teach you "formal" writing, I could see the examples not being great (not wrong either).

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8 days ago
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Shamugan
Level: 561

Ok, I think I know why I got confused (and probably you too).

First, like ギョルギ was saying, there is this form in japanese called (れんようけい). Basically, it's the " verb connective form" (If I try to literaly translate the kanji). In japanese, it's just one things but in english, well... it's mess. I forgot that but some people called it also the "masu verb stem" (Which is one of the cause why it became so messy).

Like I said, in japanese, it's just one unique thing.

a7faf8dd801deda7f8211326.png

As you can see in the image and in the colum for the , you can find ーき and ーっ in the last line. Applied to く, you get き and っ. And that き is the "masu verb stem" they are probably talking about in your book. Because き + ます => きます. But it has nothing to do with politness. It's still a "verb connective form", a form that connect/"allow" a connection to another verb (except for one case which is the て form). And that verb here is "ます". Because ます is a verb in japanese (an helper verb to be precise).

Now that I got rid of that damn "masu verb stem", we can move to the second part. き and っ are the of く (and more or less the same thing). And the so called "て form" is just the っ + て here. て (or で) being a particule whose function here is ("support relation" kinda, basically what you already of the て form).

That for the deconstruction. Now, if we sum up, the verb stem they are talking about is probably just the "き", "り", "あり" that are being used instead of the て form. Because, it's same thing. Except it gives a more "formal/narrative" tone. That goes well with the "neutral" form (だ, った, etc) like ポールおじちゃん said. They are not casual by themselves (they are "casual" in english only). It's more like those become casual in conversation because you don't make the effort of using polite speech. But by themselves, it's the neutral/basic form. Also, it would be weird I think to use です, ます in a newspaper, a research article or a text like the one you showed us. Because politeness is mostly about adapting yourself to someone else. ます, です is just the basic minimum. After that there is also , , words that you should in certain case with certain people, etc. Now that I think about it, it's maybe more because you don't do any that when you use the だ、った, etc that it feel casual in japanese (and it was translated by the "casual" form in english). Politeness is package that only start with ます, です.
And in a newspaper, a research article, etc, you can't do that by comparison. Because you don't know the person you're talking with. Using the wrong polite speech is as wrong as not using ます with stranger (or at least, it would be really weird). So, it's better to stick with the neutral form. It's more "adapted". Plus the gives a formal/narrative tone.


PS: Also, Old japanese て form: く -> き + て -> きて. The modern て form is just a transformation from the older + て form, きて, to the current one, って.
More here if you want: https://www.reddit.com/r/Learn...

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6 days ago
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Slipperybeluga
Level: 588

Ok, I think I know why I got confused (and probably you too)...

phenomenal. thanks so much for the time and energy spent. this makes sense. sounds like might have some hangups from things taught from the beginner level where that type of nuance is lost. calling things masu verb stems and implying that だ is just for casual speech sounds like it doesn't quite mesh with the reality. part of my issue is i generally only speak to peers and friends so when i am in japan or talking to someone older or a 'social superior' i have to try to force myself to speak more politely and an unfortunate mix of casual and formal language often comes out. i didn't want to compound it by misunderstanding these example sentences. thanks again! thanks.png

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3 days ago
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