I'm still confused on the difference between katakana and hiragana. I know it's probably complicated, but I though Hiragana was like imported words that sound like the origin language and katakana are words from Japan. But in the Katakana lesson I was just reviewing the word they used to showcase "e" was something that sounded like it's translation into ecobag. Do I just have the two backwards or did they use a hiragana word to showcase a katakana vowel?
Hi I am new here too, and was wondering why the word “lemon” is in Katakana in the example sentences, but the main word in the dictionary is in Hiragana. Shouldn’t that be also in Katakana ? thanks for your help.
The lemon question intrigued me, so I looked into it. BOY did I have to dig! I'm not sure how accurate this is, but this is the TLDR without getting into a lot of detail or subtlety.
れもん seems to be overwhelmingly viewed as appropriate because the word has been basically naturalized as a Japanese word. The kanji 檸檬 for lemon, with the same pronunciation of the loanword, sort of "legitimizes" the word as being Japanese, or having been absorbed/naturalized into Japanese. And with 檸檬 being made of complicated kanji, being represented with れもん is considered an appropriate substitution for the kanji.
Of course, originating as a loanword, レモン (katakana) is absolutely correct. But れもん、being the hiragana expression of the kanji 檸檬、is also mainly considered correct. Though from my research, there still seem to be some Japanese who do not believe it is acceptable and should be katakana.
One more thing that I noted that may play a role is that there was a prominent piece of fiction called れもん, a short story by Motojiro Kajii. It is the author's first work and was published in 1925. It was notable for being written in the first person.
If it helps simplify. I have never seen Lemon written in hiragana on any packaging, menus, textbooks or signs. It's almost always レモン. I drink a lot of lemon sours too, so definitely see it written a lot. If you're after what's most correct then I would probably just stick with レモン here.
If it helps simplify. I have never seen Lemon written in hiragana on any packaging, menus, textbooks or signs. It's almost always レモン. I drink a lot of lemon sours too, so definitely see it written a lot. If you're after what's most correct then I would probably just stick with レモン here.
This is an honest question out of curiosity, not a challenge of your statement... You say you have never seen れもん in hiragana, and then say it's almost always レモン in katakana. So, when it's not in katakana, it's always in kanji 檸檬 from your experience?
I agree レモン seems most likely "most correct" (logically, but I have no first hand knowledge of this), but れもん does occur. It's funny you mention product packaging, because that was the basis of one of my research study sources on the issue. Just to illustrate, I just found the following two images when searching to find れもん on product packaging/advertising.
BTW, the essay I mentioned stated that the use of れもん instead of レモン on a product label may be trying to express a notion of the lemon flavor being sweet and mellow ("cursive" hiragana) rather than sharp and sour ("angular" katakana). Just a thought.
If it helps simplify. I have never seen Lemon written in hiragana on any packaging, menus, textbooks or signs. It's almost always レモン. I drink a lot of lemon sours too, so definitely see it written a lot. If you're after what's most correct then I would probably just stick with レモン here.
This is an honest question out of curiosity, not a challenge of your statement... You say you have never seen れもん in hiragana, and then say it's almost always レモン in katakana. So, when it's not in katakana, it's always in kanji 檸檬 from your experience?
I agree レモン seems most likely "most correct" (logically, but I have no first hand knowledge of this), but れもん does occur. It's funny you mention product packaging, because that was the basis of one of my research study sources on the issue. Just to illustrate, I just found the following two images when searching to find れもん on product packaging/advertising.
BTW, the essay I mentioned stated that the use of れもん instead of レモン on a product label may be trying to express a notion of the lemon flavor being sweet and mellow ("cursive" hiragana) rather than sharp and sour ("angular" katakana). Just a thought.
Ah, no no, I love this! I was perhaps a little too liberal on the first "never", both should be *almost*. But I've definitely never seen the kanji! However I'll sometimes see the hiragana versions of many words around the place, lemon didn't stick out as being particularly special. I think the example you've got above is a good example of how the choice of characters can change depending on the point you're trying to get across. Although it is interesting that both are used in your second image!
When I say most correct, I'm saying that more as in what you should worry about and what you should write "normally" when you're learning. If you're just starting out, stick with one and then learn when you finally do make that once in a hundred mistake.
Although I must say that I've never really been taking much note of when hiragana is used... I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for it now haha. Maybe I need to drink more sake :)
Yeah, I noticed the れもん AND レモン in the second ad as well. Well, it's been an interesting deep dive! Hopefully the person who asked the question originally can get some sense of answer from these posts!
Still fun and interesting at any rate.
I suppose ultimately マイコー may be the only one who can say why the renshuu dictionary entry has れもん instead of レモン。I'd definitely love to know! I sure am craving lemon now though...
What? Renshuu’s dictionary has all three: れもん, レモン, and 檸檬. If you don’t see some of these entries, it may because have a filter turned on that only shows the most common words.
What? Renshuu’s dictionary has all three: れもん, レモン, and 檸檬. If you don’t see some of these entries, it may because have a filter turned on that only shows the most common words.
Oh, I do see all 3, but at least in the entry I see, the header term is れもん and says also written as レモン。 Just curious why the top "spelling" is れもん。
I have tried your links and typing レモンdirectly into search. They all bring up the one entry shown above. I also checked my settings and don't see anything that looks like it would stop entries from being visible. Maybe I'm missing something?...
Renshuu's dictionary is 99% fed from JMDICT, an external dictionary project, so hierarchies of terms are mostly informed from that and the order of れもん/レモン probably wasn't a decision on マイコー's part.
I suspect the reason the hiragana entry is the main one is because of the "rarely written as" ateji being attached to it and the system favouring kanji entries, not because it's more common. It can be written both ways out of preference or intended mood, like mentioned above, but the most "correct" way is the katakana spelling. If you report a mistake with the word (meatball menu option next to the dictionary definition), the entries would probably be swapped.
There ARE other borrowed words into Japanese that are commonly written in hiragana due to them being borrowed long enough ago to be thought of as regular Japanese words, or describe things that have a deeper Japanese cultural association than foreign ("naturalized", as ライトウ explained for れもん above), like たばこ, らーめん, and てんぷら. You can think of katakana like italics are used in English to write foreign words; it's the standardized way to write them and you can always fall back on it if you're not sure, but there are also borrowed words that are part enough of everyday language that they aren't often thought of as foreign, or you simply don't feel it's important to draw attention to their foreign origin, and can be written without.
Ok, I sent in "report a mistake" for the entry, suggesting レモン be the leading term and れもん be the "also written as". If this change is made, it should hopefully prevent utter confusion in the future! w
Thank you so much for sharing the dictionary explanations! And thank you as well for the explanation about "naturalized" loanwords sometimes appearing in hiragana... I feel that's important understanding for students of Japanese.